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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject: Marking a disc Reply with quote

Hypothetical Situation

Player A (we'll call him Andros) is taking a shot from the fairway. He has not marked the frisbee, but is using the disc itself as the marker.

Does he get 30 cm from the basket edge of the disc or the tee edge of the disc? I thought it was 30 cm from the leading edge of the disc. Thus, if you choose not to mark with a mini, you really only have 7 cm or so behind the trailing edge, unless you want to stand on the disc itself.

What rule the Rule Gods of the Rules thread?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First...
Quote:
803.03 Marking the Lie

A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.


...then...

Quote:
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.


The only time an "edge" is mentioned is when the player must "have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc".

So, with the phrase "on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker" I would say that the player Andros (where do you come up with these names?!?) can have 30 cm from the back of the disc.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Marking a disc Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

What rule the Rule Gods of the Rules thread?


Ummm, my wife and daughter rule this "Rule God".

An aside: the word "rule" starts to look silly after you write it a bunch of times.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what the TD ruled.

The fact that this Andros and the TD were on the same team had nothing to do with the ruling. Very Happy

It had everything to do with this foot faulting Shane guy trying to call everyone else.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
That's what the TD ruled.

The fact that this Andros and the TD were on the same team had nothing to do with the ruling. Very Happy

It had everything to do with this foot faulting Shane guy trying to call everyone else.


One foot fault and listen to the chirping

This creates an odd situation which could be used to a players advantage. Say I am in the shnarb. If I put down a mini I get 30 cm from the leading edge of the disc i threw. If I leave the disc I get 30 cm plus the width of the disc from the leading adge....this is giving an advantage. Sometimes the diameter of a disc is all you need to change disaster jail into an open window to recovery.

Why do people flip discs otherwise?

I am not satisfied with the rule gods ruling on this particular rules question.
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Last edited by Thumber on Tue May 25, 2010 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker


PDGA Rule Book: Definitions wrote:
Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.


There should be no advantage to those who chose to use there thrown disc as their marker.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

Why do people flip discs otherwise?



I don't know. Get the extra 21cm (+the extra 10cm that ALWAYS happens when it gets flipped sarcastic eye roll ) without having to carry around the added 21g, from a mini, in your bag?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I am not satisfied with the rule gods ruling on this particular rules question.


How'bout now?
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The game of golf is all about knowing when and how to take advantage (within the rules of course). Its called playing the percentages.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jefrey A. Brother"]
Quote:

There should be no advantage to those who chose to use there thrown disc as their marker.


Agreed......just another funny example of the weird ambiguities in the rules of this game I guess
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
The game of golf is all about knowing when and how to take advantage (within the rules of course). Its called playing the percentages.


The percentage that you won't get caught?
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One foot fault and listen to the chirping


Quote:
Agreed......just another funny example of the weird ambiguities in the rules of this game I guess


Very ambiguous when the guy foot faults then has his team use that shot...
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surge
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Quote:
One foot fault and listen to the chirping


Quote:
Agreed......just another funny example of the weird ambiguities in the rules of this game I guess


Very ambiguous when the guy foot faults then has his team use that shot...


Sounds like you guys had fun!
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

surge wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
Quote:
One foot fault and listen to the chirping


Quote:
Agreed......just another funny example of the weird ambiguities in the rules of this game I guess


Very ambiguous when the guy foot faults then has his team use that shot...


Sounds like you guys had fun!


It was chippy for sure
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
...This creates an odd situation which could be used to a players advantage. Say I am in the shnarb. If I put down a mini I get 30 cm from the leading edge of the disc i threw. If I leave the disc I get 30 cm plus the width of the disc from the leading adge....this is giving an advantage. Sometimes the diameter of a disc is all you need to change disaster jail into an open window to recovery.

Why do people flip discs otherwise?

I am not satisfied with the rule gods ruling on this particular rules question.

A couple of comments on this:
All of the rules exist to be used to a player's advantage. You've got to know them before you can apply them.

Regarding the comment:
Quote:
If I leave the disc I get 30 cm plus the width of the disc from the leading adge.[sic]...this is giving an advantage. Sometimes the diameter of a disc is all you need to change disaster jail into an open window to recovery.
This is categorically NOT TRUE. You do not get the width of the disc. Refer to:

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); ...

The line of play has a very specific definition:

See 800: Definitions:
Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.

People flip discs because:
1) They are ignorant of the rules; or
2) They are too lazy to use a marker; or
3) They really and truly believe that the 21cm disc diameter is going to be the difference between making a putt and missing it; or
4) Some combination of the above.

There is no good reason to flip a disc.


Last edited by Paul Bourgeois on Tue May 25, 2010 9:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it is true. I never said you didn't have to be on the line of play. You always have to be on the line of play. By width I meant diameter

My comment was that by shifting the 30 cm ahead or back by 21cm (disc width) you could potentially alter the sight line enough to get a throw off.

So could you place your mini behind the disc then take 30 cm from behind the marker disc?

All i am saying is the rules are ambiguous. This seems like something fairly simple. You put the marker in front of the disc and then get 30 cm from the back edge of the marker
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Last edited by Thumber on Tue May 25, 2010 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that i look at this, and the rules, could you be stroked for flipping a disc? You have 30 cm from the back edge of the disc. If you flip it over and put your foot in close, wouldn't you technically be in front of that back edge line?
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

The percentage that you won't get caught?


Foot faulting is against the rules.
Cheating brings bad carma.
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Actually it is true. I never said you didn't have to be on the line of play. You always have to be on the line of play. By width I meant diameter

My comment was that by shifting the 30 cm ahead or back by 21cm (disc width) you could potentially alter the sight line enough to get a throw off.

So could you place your mini behind the disc then take 30 cm from behind the marker disc?

All i am saying is the rules are ambiguous. This seems like something fairly simple. You put the marker in front of the disc and then get 30 cm from the back edge of the marker

This is certainly the case. Use this knowledge to full advantage. It can be the most important decision you make on a given throw.

Note also: marking a disc is a one way street. You can't replace the previously thrown disc once you've placed your marker.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Bourgeois wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Actually it is true. I never said you didn't have to be on the line of play. You always have to be on the line of play. By width I meant diameter

My comment was that by shifting the 30 cm ahead or back by 21cm (disc width) you could potentially alter the sight line enough to get a throw off.

So could you place your mini behind the disc then take 30 cm from behind the marker disc?

All i am saying is the rules are ambiguous. This seems like something fairly simple. You put the marker in front of the disc and then get 30 cm from the back edge of the marker

This is certainly the case. Use this knowledge to full advantage. It can be the most important decision you make on a given throw.

Note also: marking a disc is a one way street. You can't replace the previously thrown disc once you've placed your marker.


Can the marker disc be placed either in front of behind the thrown disc?

I always thought the edge of the disc closest to the basket should be where the line gets drawn. Apparently this isn't the case.

I could see this leading to in argument on a card in a tourny
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