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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: The "Enabler" Reply with quote

During a recent discussion with another golfer we started talking about other players taking certain liberties with the rules. I brought up a golfer from TO that would never hit his mark (mini-disc or disc), and had a rough time hitting the Tee-pad when they were grass (you miss on a cement Tee and you're falling). I said, that I just stopped looking so I didn't have to have that conflict within my card. Is this fair?

The other golfer, let's call him Fred, brought up that if we let them get away with what they are doing - whether it be foot faults, talking during a throw, "clearing the way" while "looking" for a disc - we have become enablers and are as much as the problem, as we don't do anything about it.

It's funny how the "cheater" is getting away with things, because of the threat of making things uneasy during the round.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called a guy for trampling long (belly button high) grass at screaming heads so he could get a run up. He was annoyed at first but others on my card backed me up. I informed him that was a courtesy violation and next time we would have to stroke him. He wasn't real pleased, but didn't do it again either.

If you have good folks on your card, and you are reasonable in what and when you call it, it usually works out. For example, I wouldn't call a foot foul on a shank, but might casually mention on the walk up the fairway that the player missed the mark. However and foot foul with a perfect throw would get ya a courtesy violation.

All within reason.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes it easier when there's 4 or more players on a card. 3 people make it difficult, because it makes it look like they're ganging up on him/her.

Good work calling him out on it.

It helps to carry a recent Rule book with you to back up what you've said.

I had to pull mine out several times in St. Thomas, mostly because they make up rules. Stroking someone for throwing a water bottle, because it's a practice throw is ridiculous.
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surge
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same argument going on in my head while playing with Bender last week. I was enabling his falling putts by not saying anything and decided no more. So I called him on the next one and told him no more, he re-took his putt and did it again, I called it again, we finished the hole and I felt bad wtf?. During the course of the game I called the falling putt maybe 5-7 times and had to wonder how much of this was my fault for not calling it everytime in the past? Funny thing is, Bender could not believe how bad his putting got once he had to think about the rules.
As for the foot faults (not sure on this) don't they have to be called before you can determine if the shot is good/bad?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It helps to KNOW the rules and the proper terms for what you are going to call someone on. For instance

Quote:
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

B. Stepping past the marker disc is permitted after the disc is released, except when putting within 10 meters.

C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.


Note: F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

You've got three seconds, and you'll need an extra set of eyes. Again, it'll feel like you've just ganged up on the individual.

Another one that doesn't get called, and gets let go a lot:
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

I practice hitting a open field mark. I practice making proper putts. If you don't, as Mr. Stokely says, "practice makes permanent", and you won't make the LEGAL shot in real play.
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surge
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note: F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

You've got three seconds, and you'll need an extra set of eyes. Again, it'll feel like you've just ganged up on the individual.

Well if a player has a propensity to bend/cheat the rules, then so be it. Let them feel like they're being ganged up on. Why should I feel bad calling someone a cheat? What's up with that? I've heard the "I don't realize I'm doing it, so it's not cheating. It's still against the rules and rules are like obstacles, wind...they are equalizers.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if you do call a foot foul, within 3 seconds, and its seconded, and its the first time you've called it, does the player making the infraction get a courtesy violation, and are they required to re-throw?

Secondly, if they do it again some time later in the round, you call it clean its a stroke penalty. Are they required to re-throw and is that a stroke as well?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
So if you do call a foot foul, within 3 seconds, and its seconded, and its the first time you've called it, does the player making the infraction get a courtesy violation, and are they required to re-throw?

Secondly, if they do it again some time later in the round, you call it clean its a stroke penalty. Are they required to re-throw and is that a stroke as well?

This isn't a courtesy violation. It's a warning and then a penalty for illegal stance. They are required to re-throw. They are NOT allowed to go and pick up their disc to rethrow it either, UNLESS it's a putt from within 10m.

A courtesy violation is for something completely different. Courtesy violations require that a player does something to the detriment of someone else. Putting their foot in the wrong place is not an act against someone else. Saying, "no f#cking way, you can't call that" IS a courtesy violation, though.

AND...

You should never feel bad about enforcing the rules, and you should automatically give a courtesy violation to anyone that complains about it. You should also thank those that call you on rules violations. They are helping you to become a better golfer.

surge,
While bender may have suffered a poor score, I'll bet he's happy to know he's just become a better golfer, even if the score didn't show it.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.
The three second rule is BS.
Who the heck has a three-second timer running after every throw?
We aren't playing an arena sport, but the PDGA has to figure that out for themselves. I've never seen an electronic scoreboard and timer a disc golf event. Perhaps "the stork" has.

Anyways, I digress.
You call it when you see it.

That means when the disc is likely to still be in the air (an a drive, anyways).

When I'm ready to call a foot fault on someone, I'll stand beside my "witness" and whisper to them, "watch his foot for a foot fault".

Works every time.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some AM2 perspective. I find lots of these players don't always know the rules so we kind of go with the flow.

I was warned about a foot fault at Screaming Heads on my card on the second hole. The warning was that was pretty bad and worse than the first hole. I knew I was pretty far over on that shot as my happy feet run up was all screwed up. I saw no problem with the warning and said so.

What really bothered me is that I was good for the rest of the round but another player on the card (not the one that warned me) was making a foot fault at each tee. Every one of them. No warming at all.

The fact that I was out driving the whole group and the guy who warned me was interesting.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And who's fault is that Johnny sly wink . Let me guess, they were buds.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What really bothered me is that I was good for the rest of the round but another player on the card (not the one that warned me) was making a foot fault at each tee. Every one of them. No warming at all.


Why didn't you call it. In a tourny it can really shake the competition.

I've started trying to tee off a meter from the front of the box just to be sure.

I've called AM2 players in the opening rounds of tourny's quite a few times.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
And who's fault is that Johnny sly wink . Let me guess, they were buds.


All AM2's are buds!!!! Fun cards they are....

Nothing a few rockets didn't smooth over. I think the guys wife might have ditched him for some more Eagle V fun.

It might have been personal??? LOL
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the guys wife might have ditched him for some more Eagle V fun.


That was funny....what a night
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Quote:
What really bothered me is that I was good for the rest of the round but another player on the card (not the one that warned me) was making a foot fault at each tee. Every one of them. No warming at all.


Why didn't you call it. In a tourny it can really shake the competition.

I've started trying to tee off a meter from the front of the box just to be sure.

I've called AM2 players in the opening rounds of tourny's quite a few times.


I like to be warned as you're learning. A warning from a Pro or a better player is a favour.

The other guys doing the foot fouls wasn't bothering me. It was just his rhythm as far as I was concerned and I'll admit my violation on the second hole was big. Knowing the rules a bit more I think I'm allowed to keep the disc in my hand and then restart? Is that true?

I also saw how some AM1's were establishing where to shoot after going into the water on 6(?). They were teeing up in the middle of the road? Even the AM2's were getting off the road and on the slope to the water. I need to get somebody to help me understand what the process is in DG.


Last edited by John Pytel on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Quote:
I think the guys wife might have ditched him for some more Eagle V fun.


That was funny....what a night


I felt bad. Nobody wants his lady on the loose with the Eagle V crew. NOBODY!!!!

He was going to bed early though. Tough call.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also saw how some AM1's were establishing where to shoot after going into the water on 6(?). They were teeing up in the middle of the road? Even the AM2's were getting off the road and on the slope to the water. I need to get somebody to help me undertand what the process is in DG.


I saw that too John. They were cheating. In fact I saw alot of liberty taken all weekend with respect to disc placement out of the OB
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Quote:
I also saw how some AM1's were establishing where to shoot after going into the water on 6(?). They were teeing up in the middle of the road? Even the AM2's were getting off the road and on the slope to the water. I need to get somebody to help me undertand what the process is in DG.


I saw that too John. They were cheating. In fact I saw alot of liberty taken all weekend with respect to disc placement out of the OB


I thought it was bad and I think it was during the skins and money rounds.
Memory issues for some reason.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya but it's the OD tour. C'mon
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
Ya but it's the OD tour. C'mon


True. True. The whole thing is a violation. A violation of all things boring.

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